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NitpickLawyer 13 hours ago [-]
Supposedly this is a Kimi k3 rival. Bit of a chonker, especially since they only released bf16 and fp8. So at launch this will be harder to serve than k3. No QAT on q4 means that someone with deep pockets (nvda?) will have to quant it, with plenty of calibration data. Should bring it ~1.3TB, so around k3 size.
License pretty similar to k3 with some caveats. Free to use for internal or <50M$ revenue / year. Limitations above that threshold for serving the model or services targeting coding / productivity agents.
Benchmarks are looking good, trading blows w/ opus4.8 and sol, generally 10-20p under fable. But that's neither here nor there w/ qwen, their benchmark to real world usage correlation has been iffy in the past.
The local model 3.8-27B announced for Friday, same time so ~48 hours from now. That'll be a bit more exciting for a lot more people, since 3.6 was quite good for local inference, and their 3.7-max -> 3.8-max shows a lot of improvement.
I had several issues with unsloth gguf, even for models released a few months back like gemma 4, I have 0 confidence in their models, at this stage, I feel several uncensored are more reliable.
SwellJoe 21 minutes ago [-]
Counterpoint: I've been using the Unsloth Gemma 4 quants extensively since very soon after release (on ROCm and Apple Silicon, I don't have any Nvidia hardware big enough), pretty much every quantization down to 4 bits (the QAT is the business, indistinguishable from the full-fat version, runs great on a slightly chonky desktop or laptop), and I haven't had any issues. The reason I use Gemma 4 so much often comes down to how reliable it is; when I want to experiment with llama.cpp settings, MTP, n-gram, etc. it's my go-to because I know there isn't anything wrong with the model or the quantizations that could interfere with the experiment.
It did take a little while for Unsloth to update the Laguna S 2.1 quants to fix the yarn_attn_factor, and so it was a bit frustrating getting that quantization running right, but almost always, I pick the unsloth quantization if there is one. (Still waiting/hoping for a Ling 3.0 Flash.)
danielhanchen 6 hours ago [-]
Hey sorry what are the problems that you're experiencing - we're more than happy to help fix them!
LeBit 4 hours ago [-]
Thank you for what you are doing.
danielhanchen 2 hours ago [-]
Thanks for the support and to the community!
chlorion 2 hours ago [-]
Huh I have had great luck with unsloth quants so far. What issues are you having?
segmondy 9 hours ago [-]
... because they are often the first to quant it. sometimes the actually model providers will release wrong chat templates or values in the model config which leads to bad quants. how would you know a quant is good if you don't make one? you don't. so they make it first, then they run a lot of tests, KD, perplexity, etc, they publish it. They take feedback from the community, then they update if needed. if you want to try it right now, you grab it else wait for a week or 2.
Foobar8568 9 hours ago [-]
Gemma4 was released a few weeks ago? The problems are still there. Today I started using another "provider" and the problems disappeared. Thanks but no.
danielhanchen 6 hours ago [-]
Hey yes - if you could describe what the issues are - we will gladly fix them!
arcanemachiner 8 hours ago [-]
They are very responsive, and would probably be happy to help you fix your issues.
segmondy 6 hours ago [-]
I've 0 issues with gemma4 and I downloaded it early.
LeBit 4 hours ago [-]
Same. Used the 12B, 26B A4B and 31B.
No issues with llama.cpp.
jokethrowaway 7 hours ago [-]
I've used their gemma 4 quants since when they were not still working in llama.cpp and ik-llama.cpp and I don't remember any problems
They are the most reliable in my experience, but if you have alternatives you trust I'd love to know
codedokode 12 hours ago [-]
I wonder who is unsloth and where they got time, hardware and knowledge to quantize them?
NitpickLawyer 12 hours ago [-]
unshloth started as a finetuning library with lots of optimisations so you could finetune on lower end hardware. Kind of OGs of the local community. Started by two brothers Michael and Daniel(?) a math wiz and a community builder/communicator. They've since gotten some VC backing, are active in quantising lots of models on release day (work w/ labs to prepare things), known for their optimised quants (use different bits for different layers). Recently I saw they launched some sort of a desktop app, like lmstudio if you're familiar with it. They're really cool people and known in the local model places.
They started with offering training methods for quantized models to save memory and added new things over time. They are very active in the local model community and have extensive documentation and tooling to help with running and training models locally.
kittikitti 10 hours ago [-]
I quantize my models with llama.cpp and it's usually one command. Some of their quants are fine-tuned by architecture but it's only to squeeze out every little performance benefit.
suprjami 7 hours ago [-]
Unsloth imatrix data puts their quants at lower KLD than almost all others.
It's true they make architecture-specific changes like keeping certain layers at F16 but it's also more than that.
unleaded 6 hours ago [-]
What hardware would you even be able to run this on?
zepearl 7 hours ago [-]
The parameter "reasoning_effort" is something new, or am I wrong?
Qwen3.8 comes with official support for reasoning_effort, which can be used to adjust reasoning depth and control cost:
- xhigh (default): for complex tasks demanding thorough analysis
- medium: balancing accuracy and speed
- low: efficient reasoning optimizing for speed and cost
In addition, preserve_thinking is enabled by default for all workloads for the best out-of-the-box experience.
Asking because in my case (OCR of scanned historical "National Geographic" magazines) the LLM trying to merge text split into separate columns was running in circles from time to time and needed a lot of prompt tuning when using Qwen 3.0/3.5/3.6 (still needs from time to time).
philipkglass 6 hours ago [-]
I'm using Qwen 3.5 for OCR, and reasoning_effort is supported there too. I found that it can be loop-prone (though somewhat less so) even if you set reasoning_effort to low.
alanwreath 11 hours ago [-]
> 3.8-27B announced for Friday
Maybe I’m misreading this or some other post, I thought QWEN was stepping away from releasing these models for local consumption
NitpickLawyer 11 hours ago [-]
3.8-27B is confirmed for Friday. They didn't release their whole 4B-400B range of models since 3.5. And 3.6 only got 27B and 35B MoE. So yeah, slowing down, but not completely out of the small model game.
trollbridge 11 hours ago [-]
They reversed course and now are saying they'll be releasing their Max style models in open weights.
arthurcolle 11 hours ago [-]
thank you china!
FooBarWidget 9 hours ago [-]
Rather, thank you competition in China. This is Chinese "overcapacity" (of talent pool) at work.
embedding-shape 8 hours ago [-]
Quite literally the government in China came out and said "It'd be better for us if we did more open models and collaborated with other countries also doing open models" and then Qwen changed their tune. It's literally thanks to China in this case, not competitors/peers in China. Their government is horrible for a lot of stuff, but in this case they do deserve praise for forcing the "right" (according to me) direction.
matheusmoreira 3 hours ago [-]
Realpolitik I guess. They want to destabilize the USA, and we want open weights we can run on our own machines. As long as those interests coincide, we are allied.
The best outcome for us is the one where they all keep competing and undermining each other until the end of time while providing us all with better models and cheaper hardware to run them with. The US corporations in particular should never be allowed to achieve their "you'll buy intelligence from us on a meter" rent seeking dream.
arthurcolle 3 hours ago [-]
when Mistral finally releases Le Chaton Fat, I will switch to that but until then, I will count my lucky starts that this exists. Cheers to Qwen3.8-2.4T release day
matheusmoreira 3 hours ago [-]
Cheers!
suprjami 7 hours ago [-]
Our desire for better local models just happens to coincide with China's desire to destroy the western AI company business model by releasing local models. I doubt there's any philanthropy involved.
horacemorace 4 hours ago [-]
Which coincidentally helps average people far more than the already rich investors in a few western mega corps.
If it weren’t for these big Chinese model releases the western companies wouldn’t release anything at all. The field would be advancing at a snail’s pace.
ngl999 1 hours ago [-]
that "collaborate" means US GPUs and training set, then deployed in censored data centers for profit
bsder 3 hours ago [-]
> Their government is horrible for a lot of stuff, but in this case they do deserve praise for forcing the "right" (according to me) direction.
It's not just according to you.
Without open weights, what happens if you get blacklisted from Anthropic and OpenAI? If AI becomes a standard tool for programming like a compiler, you've effectively been Blackballed from the field of programming. Full Stop. This is "Right to Read" coming home: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
In addition, without open source competitors to your core tools, we KNOW what happens. Cadence and Synopsys and a megabuck per engineer per year ... that's what happens.
jokethrowaway 7 hours ago [-]
The obvious goal is to destabilize the western economy and prove that US tech is a worthless bubble - but I agree, OSS AI is great for everybody and what OpenAI was supposed to be
DrBenCarson 5 hours ago [-]
There’s an alternate universe in which OpenAI stays open, licenses according to revenue, Chinese models don’t gain traction in the US because domestic models take all the capacity…whatever, $1T IPO beats the right answer ever time
ethbr1 2 hours ago [-]
> Chinese models don’t gain traction in the US because domestic models take all the capacity…whatever, $1T IPO beats the right answer ever time
The trouble here is how more infrastructure helps OpenAI and Anthropic continue billing at 10/100x Chinese model rates.
Either their models have to be better (to justify the higher prices and margin) or their inference has to be lower cost (which isn't going to happen until they move away from Nvidia).
PerkFuel 9 hours ago [-]
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9 hours ago [-]
MrDrMcCoy 13 hours ago [-]
Llama.cpp can quantize without special training, but I'm not sure if any special model architecture support is needed to read it in the first place. If it can be converted to gguf at all and you know what tensors to target, it can get the full ternary bonsai treatment today.
NitpickLawyer 13 hours ago [-]
Sure, but that's for "personal" serving. I meant for 3rd party providers. Usually we get a good indication on what it costs to host this, as the prices settle on open router. That's why I said it's tougher to serve than kimi k3 on launch. As a provider you'd do fp8 if the model creator didn't do QAT on q4, or until someone does a good calibrated nvfp4. And that's usually nvda :)
MrDrMcCoy 12 hours ago [-]
That makes sense, but your specific phrasing precluded the possibility of non-QAT quantization.
NitpickLawyer 12 hours ago [-]
Should have worded that better, my bad.
binary132 13 hours ago [-]
QAT is an optimizing quantization algorithm, not naive quant.
dragonwriter 5 hours ago [-]
Isn’t QAT a training approach (roughly, simulating quantization in the forward pass during training so that quantization of the level targeted in training has close-to-optimal behavior), not a quantization algorithm? Hence, the name?
MrDrMcCoy 13 hours ago [-]
Right, but the way they phrased it suggested that without QAT it could not be quanted at all.
esafak 13 hours ago [-]
Now that they have reached the frontier in raw performance, I would like to see Chinese models improve their reasoning efficiency.
JSR_FDED 7 hours ago [-]
I bet they could do it faster if they weren’t blocked from buying GPUs
verdverm 11 hours ago [-]
For all the talk about over reasoning, K3 on low thinking has been rather nice
esafak 10 hours ago [-]
It looks like a work horse! Is it yours?
jingpostmedia 13 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
verdverm 11 hours ago [-]
quanting is actually cheap and you can compress a model that does not fit on a GPU. You can process layer by layer, this is what the sequential processor in llm-compressor does.
dhx 13 hours ago [-]
Also of interest: DeepSeek V4-Pro-0813 (1.6T-A49B) benchmark scores have apparently just been announced on the DeepSeek WeChat channel and they're sitting about Fable 5 level.[1]
Isn't this quite a bit behind Sol and Fable and even ChatGPT 5.5 xhigh and Opus 5 max?
In terms of what you get for what you pay for, it's incredible - probably by far the best.
But unless I'm reading things wrong, it does not appear to be top-of-the-line.
neosat 12 hours ago [-]
This may not 'quite a bit behind' those at all. If you look at the benchmark numbers they are very comparable to Fable, but beyond a certain point the benchmark numbers don't tell you much. Opus #5 beats Fable on some benchmarks but given similar cost almost everyone who has used those two models will prefer to use Fable.
At this price range $0.87per 1M they will get a lot of usage of people trying it out. Given the benchmark numbers, for many people and many use cases this will become their primary driver. There are people and use cases where Fable, Sol will work better but those are likely not the target of DeepSeek anyway.
In terms of performance and price pareto curve I don't think any model can beat this today (though openAI is doing some exciting recent work in efficiency) - which is a remarkable feat for the DeepSeek team.
Either way, what a time for consumers of these models :)
SwellJoe 15 minutes ago [-]
I stopped picking Fable because it refuses based on guardrails so often. I do a lot of security related work, and Fable just won't do any of it. So, I don't bother. Unfortunately, Opus 5 also refuses quite a bit of security work, now, as well, so my Anthropic subscription becomes less useful by the day. Fable may be better, but if it won't do the work...
DeepSeek and Kimi K3 will happily do security work, and they do it pretty well.
Does that mean they're using the new pricing now? I no longer see the warning/notice about "Things are about to get a lot more expensive soon" on https://platform.deepseek.com/usage anymore, so I guess yes?
The 1bit quant model is at an astonishing 397GB with 95B active per MOE. This literally puts Opus 4.5 performance level into a machine a normal person could buy, and still gets usable tokens/second.
The full lossless model BF16 is clocking at 4.9TB. The model card claims the model to be between Opus 4.8 and Fable 5. Again that's astonishing as getting a machine with 7TB RAM (with context + KV cache) is still within the realm of medium size companies.
Bad things: The open source version has its vision capability removed, and the context capped at 250k . I expect someone to bolt a Kimi 2.6 vision tower to it to restore the vision capability (at less performance of course). For context, I played around with extending the context to 600k for Qwen 3.5 397b, and the context remained stable up to around 480k. It'd be interesting to see if the same can be done to Q3.8 .
Also no out of the box DSpark/DFlash support. MTP is present so we should at least get some boost in TP speed.
ilc 13 hours ago [-]
To compare a 1 bit quant to the full fat model is misleading.
Honestly this model people at home can tinker with, if you have a big enough Mac. Maybe 4 Strix Halo/DGX Spark, and then at 1 bit quant? Nah.
Use the right sized model, for your hardware. You'll get better results.
guardiangod 13 hours ago [-]
Extremely large 1 bit models are usually within 50-60% of KV divergence to lossless models. In this case I think the comparison to Opus 4.5 is a fair assessment.
Extremely large models don't suffer as much from quantization due to its weight topology also contains encoded information, so the loss of info from any one weight is somewhat mitigated.
ilc 13 hours ago [-]
Any one weight, but all of them. And also crushing the architecture itself?
I wouldn't pick up 400gb of hardware to run in that mode. I might try it for fun, but even then you are looking at handling a 95GB active parameter set.
This is NOT a model for most home labs. I'm sure some can and will use it. But most, should steer clear.
dist-epoch 12 hours ago [-]
KL divergence (you misspelled it) doesn't tell you anything about capability drop - how much did this particular benchmark (thus ranking among models) change after 10% or 50% KL divergence?
pil0u 12 hours ago [-]
I don't understand the logic behind model sizes and quantization.
Suppose I have 100GB of unified memory, how should I know which model suits it best? I understand how a 2.4T model wouldn't fit, but I don't understand the impact of quantization and whether I should use a 200G model quantised to fit say 90GB of memory, or a non-quantised 90G model.
numpad0 9 hours ago [-]
Usually the largest Q4 model that fits and has best reputations. Usually the performance degradation is not considered tolerable below Q4. Usually the model of choice ends up being either Qwen 3.6 27B or 35B-A3B.
What's weird about local LLM models is that closed door improvements in training/RLHF dataset have been so significant that it's rare for larger but older models to make sense - everyone seem to always hard switch to the newest one and report step changes in capabilities(or maybe people running Kimi K2 since release just don't talk about it on the public Internet, giving me that impression).
NitpickLawyer 12 hours ago [-]
It really depends. It used to be easier to have a rule of thumb, but now it's not clear anymore. Now there are a lot of things to consider, such as a model's kv efficiency (how much context you can fit), MoE v. dense, QAT or not (Quant aware training) and so on.
The old rule of thumb was that a lower quant of a larger model > higher quant of a smaller model. That being said, for some things going lower than fp8 will see a lot of degradation in generation quality. Except if the model comes with QAT 4bit quants. Then there's also nvfp4 w/ calibration data, which also can improve things. So it's really not easy to tell "at a glance" you'd have to test them yourself on your hardware.
onlyrealcuzzo 12 hours ago [-]
Standard models are designed to quantize down to 4-bits relatively well.
Anything below that, and especially 1.58b - is typically complete garbage, and you're much better off running a model 100x smaller at regular precision (compared to one 7x smaller quantized into complete garbage).
If the model was designed specifically to quantize down to 1.58b, then it's different.
AFAIK, there's no large models designed for this yet.
richardfey 8 hours ago [-]
> If the model was designed specifically to quantize down to 1.58b, then it's different.
> AFAIK, there's no large models designed for this yet.
Isn't BitNet b1.58 2B4T what you are looking for? (haven't tried it myself though)
onlyrealcuzzo 7 hours ago [-]
2B is pretty small...
No 100B+ param (certainly no 2T+ param) models have been trained natively to quantize down to 1.58b.
codedokode 12 hours ago [-]
Usually 4-bit 200B model is better than 8-bit 90B. But if you go below 4 bits, I am not sure what is better.
markasoftware 12 hours ago [-]
There's no rhyme or reason to it. Quants aren't benchmarked much. Generally 4bit better than smaller model 8bit
auspiv 13 hours ago [-]
Opus 4.5 level of performance is also accessible with deepseek-v4-flash-0731 (0731 being the july 31 update) which is much, much, much smaller. 2x RTX pro 6000 blackwell can run it. 4x can run it very comfortably
guardiangod 13 hours ago [-]
I am running DS v4 flash 0731 lossless at 80t/s right now. It really is not at Opus 4.5 level (for my workload). I would say it's around 3.7 Sonnet, which is still pretty good, but other models such as GLM 5.2 are still leaps better. Of course I run DSv4 flash over GLM 5.2 for a few very good reasons, but intelligence is not 1 of them.
MrDrMcCoy 13 hours ago [-]
Despite fitting into VRAM, I can't get DSV4 to run at usable speeds on my AMD hardware. The upcoming qwen3.8 27b greatly excites me, and I hope it can outperform Stepfun 3.7 Flash, which is the best thing I can run today.
Philpax 13 hours ago [-]
What do you need the extra 2 for? Tensor parallelism?
arjie 13 hours ago [-]
Longer context and more cache. The problem is that native format with DSpark enabled you have very little room on the VRAM.
Philpax 12 hours ago [-]
I was under the impression that you could fit the full 1M context within the 192GB VRAM as a result of DeepSeek's various architectural advancements, but I'll grant that DSpark + a larger pool for concurrency may necessitate more VRAM, yes.
cbeach 9 hours ago [-]
Anyone thinking of buying 2x RTX Pro 6000 Blackwells - beware: unlike other cards e.g. RTX 5090, The RTX Pro 6000 cards cannot be NV-Linked, so you'll be going through the PCIe bus instead (7x higher sync cost)
ThunderSizzle 5 hours ago [-]
My understanding is the last consumer card that supported that was the 3090. A Google search seems to agree the 5090 does NOT support NVLink...
wolttam 10 hours ago [-]
Opus 4.5, even 4.6-level performance has been around since July 31st in 284B total params and just 160GB of weights at native FP4 quantization- DSv4 Flash.
ekianjo 11 hours ago [-]
> The 1bit quant model i
at this kind of quantization is it useful though?
l72 13 hours ago [-]
> In particular, Qwen3.8-Max is the official version based on Qwen3.8-2.4T-A95B with more features, such as vision input & non-thinking support, 1M context length by default, official built-in tools, etc.
That is unfortunate, that the open weight model doesn't have vision support or the 1M context length...
wren6991 13 hours ago [-]
People have had surprising success adding vision to open-weight LLMs that ship without it, like DSV4 Flash [1] or GLM-5.2 [2]. Given this model is already vision-trained I expect that approach will work well here.
Interestingly, the high variant does a lot worse and failed to generate a valid SVG (and the low variant use more tokens than the high one, so maybe their reasoning efforts are not working properly).
The solar system animation is also the coolest looking I've seen, unfortunately the animation doesn't work:
More curious about how qwen3.8-27B performs. That's the size that I can run locally.
Bob_bo 3 hours ago [-]
People online say this model's performance isn't very good; what do you think of it after using it?
cautiouscat 12 hours ago [-]
I've been wanting to run open weight models lately to give them a shot with OpenCode. However, I get the impression that models like Qwen and Kimi k3 are impossible to run locally? I have a RTX 5090 and 64 GB of RAM but the models seem to be much larger than that. What's the route to start using these models? Bedrock?
mswphd 11 hours ago [-]
OpenRouter is (roughly) a single proxy between you + many different models + providers. it works with opencode (+ many other products), and is relatively convenient for trying out a bunch of models.
note that they add some fee ontop of things (maybe 10% of spend?). it isn't htat big of a deal for general experimentation, but if you end up wanting to use a single model in a higher-volume way, it likely makes sense to cut them out of your stack.
daemonologist 12 hours ago [-]
Bedrock seems to have stopped adding new open-weights models, and mostly only has Anthropic and OpenAI stuff now. You can get Qwen 3.8 directly from Alibaba: https://www.qwencloud.com (proprietary variant) or from DigitalOcean (this variant, probably also from others soon).
On your 5090 you could easily run a smaller model like Qwen 3.6 27B: https://huggingface.co/collections/Qwen/qwen36 or Gemma 4 etc., or as mentioned there's a Qwen 3.8 27B coming out in a few days.
cautiouscat 12 hours ago [-]
What does the number before the B signify?
Eisenstein 12 hours ago [-]
Its number of parameters. The 'B' is billions. If you have bf16 weights each parameter would be 16 bits.
zeeveener 12 hours ago [-]
You could easily run any of their 30B-or-less models which is what most people are waiting for.
Apparently the ~30B variant will be released on Friday?
julianlam 5 hours ago [-]
Define "easily". My laptop (2023) was configured with 16gb.
Getting to the point where I was able to run a 30B model required $500 in memory.
gessha 11 hours ago [-]
5090 is plenty for the Q4_K_M quantized version of 3.6 27B with reduced context size.
I run it on a 3090(24GB) and 64k context using GGUF format and llama-cpp. Double 3090 gives you 128k, quad 3090 gets you to full context - 256k.
verdverm 11 hours ago [-]
Fireworks or OpenCode Go
octocop 10 hours ago [-]
when will we see MIT license Qwen again?
simonw 13 hours ago [-]
Is this the largest ever open weight model release by parameter count? I think it is.
NitpickLawyer 13 hours ago [-]
No, Kimi k3 is 2.8T params. This is 2.4T params but ~5TB weights because it was released in bf16 and ~2.5TB for the fp8 version. Kimi k3 launched with QAT 4bit, so ~1.5TB weights.
Mercuriusdream 12 hours ago [-]
KIMI K3 was the biggest open weight release afaik; It is 2.8T-A100B if I'm correct
theanonymousone 13 hours ago [-]
Do we know if AA and DeepSWE benchmarks are on bf16 or fp8 quantisations?
License pretty similar to k3 with some caveats. Free to use for internal or <50M$ revenue / year. Limitations above that threshold for serving the model or services targeting coding / productivity agents.
Benchmarks are looking good, trading blows w/ opus4.8 and sol, generally 10-20p under fable. But that's neither here nor there w/ qwen, their benchmark to real world usage correlation has been iffy in the past.
The local model 3.8-27B announced for Friday, same time so ~48 hours from now. That'll be a bit more exciting for a lot more people, since 3.6 was quite good for local inference, and their 3.7-max -> 3.8-max shows a lot of improvement.
It did take a little while for Unsloth to update the Laguna S 2.1 quants to fix the yarn_attn_factor, and so it was a bit frustrating getting that quantization running right, but almost always, I pick the unsloth quantization if there is one. (Still waiting/hoping for a Ling 3.0 Flash.)
No issues with llama.cpp.
They are the most reliable in my experience, but if you have alternatives you trust I'd love to know
It's true they make architecture-specific changes like keeping certain layers at F16 but it's also more than that.
Maybe I’m misreading this or some other post, I thought QWEN was stepping away from releasing these models for local consumption
The best outcome for us is the one where they all keep competing and undermining each other until the end of time while providing us all with better models and cheaper hardware to run them with. The US corporations in particular should never be allowed to achieve their "you'll buy intelligence from us on a meter" rent seeking dream.
It's not just according to you.
Without open weights, what happens if you get blacklisted from Anthropic and OpenAI? If AI becomes a standard tool for programming like a compiler, you've effectively been Blackballed from the field of programming. Full Stop. This is "Right to Read" coming home: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
In addition, without open source competitors to your core tools, we KNOW what happens. Cadence and Synopsys and a megabuck per engineer per year ... that's what happens.
The trouble here is how more infrastructure helps OpenAI and Anthropic continue billing at 10/100x Chinese model rates.
Either their models have to be better (to justify the higher prices and margin) or their inference has to be lower cost (which isn't going to happen until they move away from Nvidia).
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1vmi0fg/deepsee...
In terms of what you get for what you pay for, it's incredible - probably by far the best.
But unless I'm reading things wrong, it does not appear to be top-of-the-line.
At this price range $0.87per 1M they will get a lot of usage of people trying it out. Given the benchmark numbers, for many people and many use cases this will become their primary driver. There are people and use cases where Fable, Sol will work better but those are likely not the target of DeepSeek anyway.
In terms of performance and price pareto curve I don't think any model can beat this today (though openAI is doing some exciting recent work in efficiency) - which is a remarkable feat for the DeepSeek team.
Either way, what a time for consumers of these models :)
DeepSeek and Kimi K3 will happily do security work, and they do it pretty well.
https://openrouter.ai/deepseek/deepseek-v4-pro-0813
The former has a button to dismiss the dialog. Maybe you clicked on it by accident, or maybe it does not work right.
they have a somewhat selfhostable model(flash), but are mostly known for having super cheap api access
no zdr ofcourse.
The 1bit quant model is at an astonishing 397GB with 95B active per MOE. This literally puts Opus 4.5 performance level into a machine a normal person could buy, and still gets usable tokens/second.
The full lossless model BF16 is clocking at 4.9TB. The model card claims the model to be between Opus 4.8 and Fable 5. Again that's astonishing as getting a machine with 7TB RAM (with context + KV cache) is still within the realm of medium size companies.
Bad things: The open source version has its vision capability removed, and the context capped at 250k . I expect someone to bolt a Kimi 2.6 vision tower to it to restore the vision capability (at less performance of course). For context, I played around with extending the context to 600k for Qwen 3.5 397b, and the context remained stable up to around 480k. It'd be interesting to see if the same can be done to Q3.8 .
Also no out of the box DSpark/DFlash support. MTP is present so we should at least get some boost in TP speed.
Honestly this model people at home can tinker with, if you have a big enough Mac. Maybe 4 Strix Halo/DGX Spark, and then at 1 bit quant? Nah.
Use the right sized model, for your hardware. You'll get better results.
Extremely large models don't suffer as much from quantization due to its weight topology also contains encoded information, so the loss of info from any one weight is somewhat mitigated.
I wouldn't pick up 400gb of hardware to run in that mode. I might try it for fun, but even then you are looking at handling a 95GB active parameter set.
This is NOT a model for most home labs. I'm sure some can and will use it. But most, should steer clear.
Suppose I have 100GB of unified memory, how should I know which model suits it best? I understand how a 2.4T model wouldn't fit, but I don't understand the impact of quantization and whether I should use a 200G model quantised to fit say 90GB of memory, or a non-quantised 90G model.
What's weird about local LLM models is that closed door improvements in training/RLHF dataset have been so significant that it's rare for larger but older models to make sense - everyone seem to always hard switch to the newest one and report step changes in capabilities(or maybe people running Kimi K2 since release just don't talk about it on the public Internet, giving me that impression).
The old rule of thumb was that a lower quant of a larger model > higher quant of a smaller model. That being said, for some things going lower than fp8 will see a lot of degradation in generation quality. Except if the model comes with QAT 4bit quants. Then there's also nvfp4 w/ calibration data, which also can improve things. So it's really not easy to tell "at a glance" you'd have to test them yourself on your hardware.
Anything below that, and especially 1.58b - is typically complete garbage, and you're much better off running a model 100x smaller at regular precision (compared to one 7x smaller quantized into complete garbage).
If the model was designed specifically to quantize down to 1.58b, then it's different.
AFAIK, there's no large models designed for this yet.
> AFAIK, there's no large models designed for this yet.
Isn't BitNet b1.58 2B4T what you are looking for? (haven't tried it myself though)
No 100B+ param (certainly no 2T+ param) models have been trained natively to quantize down to 1.58b.
at this kind of quantization is it useful though?
That is unfortunate, that the open weight model doesn't have vision support or the 1M context length...
[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1vl6ior/i_gave_...
[2] https://huggingface.co/baseten/GLM-5.2-Vision-NVFP4
[0]: https://aibenchy.com/compare/x-ai-grok-4-6-high/bytedance-se...
[1]: https://aibenchy.com/compare/x-ai-grok-4-6-high/bytedance-se...
The solar system animation is also the coolest looking I've seen, unfortunately the animation doesn't work:
https://aibenchy.com/compare/qwen-qwen3-8-2-4t-a95b-low/qwen...
for example, they already have qwen3.8-max
https://openrouter.ai/discover?model=qwen/qwen3.8-max
note that they add some fee ontop of things (maybe 10% of spend?). it isn't htat big of a deal for general experimentation, but if you end up wanting to use a single model in a higher-volume way, it likely makes sense to cut them out of your stack.
On your 5090 you could easily run a smaller model like Qwen 3.6 27B: https://huggingface.co/collections/Qwen/qwen36 or Gemma 4 etc., or as mentioned there's a Qwen 3.8 27B coming out in a few days.
Apparently the ~30B variant will be released on Friday?
Getting to the point where I was able to run a 30B model required $500 in memory.
I run it on a 3090(24GB) and 64k context using GGUF format and llama-cpp. Double 3090 gives you 128k, quad 3090 gets you to full context - 256k.
Make of this what you will.
I'm interested in your take on it. IIRC Gemma family models too have a ~250k vocabulary size
best crypto-bro impression I can do...
Read the room, Qwen. It's not a good time to hobble your releases.